Curse

Bowstring Badass · Aug 23, 2007, 10:09 PM // 22:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

Don't make a dervish, and don't make an assassin. Don't make a warrior.
Make an elementalist, or necro, something that will probably get you into Pugs more easily as a newer player.

Yeah just remember when that assassin is spiking you down in PVP that you said this.

Warriors are far from useless for spiking down single targets. Dervishes are better when people ball up (not done anymore). Warrior is a great class but being less played because the top players are quitting and you get new guilds who think warriors suck because they rely to heavy on monks for healing. What class doesn't? Warriors are great just don't listen to people but when they are trying to help you as a player by telling you that a certain skill may be better don't say "STFU NOOB GOD I KNOW WHAT IM DOING!!!1".

Don't let anyone tell you that something is useless or better unless it is an MM in PvP that is a nono (OK PEOPLE QUIT THIS ALREADY).

Ensign · Aug 23, 2007, 10:13 PM // 22:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist

Hmm, a tank that runs at 33% faster speeds...hmmm

Since moving faster than normal is a fairly well known way to break aggro quickly, isn't the idea of a fast moving tank entirely contradictory?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist

You can't honestly be comparing the 2, right?

Of course they aren't comparable. Obsidian Flesh tanks are exactly that, nigh-invulnerable characters designed to hold aggro. Avatar of Balthazar Dervishes are bad players who think spending their elite on a 40 armor boost is a good trade as long as it makes them look cool. They aren't even remotely comparable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist

I'll chalk it up to taste.

Ah, yes, when you have absolutely no clue what you're doing in a conversation, it makes perfect sense to dismiss everything as nothing more than a matter of taste so that rational arguments no longer have any merit.

Cathode_Reborn · Aug 23, 2007, 11:49 PM // 23:49

The problem with these "is xxx class useless?" threads is that too many people attempt to bring down a class by using horrible players as examples. I also believe tanking should be left out of these discussions. If you join a team of good players in some random missions, chances are they'll want you to dish out as much damage as you can and leave the healing part to the monks.

While I do like my warrior mainly for pvp, I do use him in pve sometimes. They arn't useless and can deal high amounts of damage, but they're in competition with the 2 other melee classes when it comes to that.

I have all 3 melee classes: War, Derv, Sin...all made in that order. My preference when it comes to playing them is Sin, Derv, then War, in that order. I don't like playing my war too often in pve but I won't say they're useless.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Issac

I played a warrior and have a dervish, I can out damage dervish anytime with my warrior, dervish suffer some more weakness because some builds rely on enchantments,and they can be take off. From my builds I would jsut about always choose a warrior.

That's questionable. Wearying Strike is almost exacly like a non-elite version of Eviscerate on a 6 sec recharge but....it can hit upto 3 targets. Derv easily wins a War when it comes to aoe damage. Aura of Holy Might makes crit hits on a scythe do massive damage that a war can't get close to but as you mentioned, enchantments can be stripped.

Toutatis · Aug 24, 2007, 01:19 AM // 01:19

I don't believe that warriors are useless. Warriors are heavily armored and quite versatile characters to play with. They can interrupt, knock down, break stances, inflict a wide range of conditions, absorb a good deal of punishment, and give small buffs to allies; all this and more before they dip into their secondaries or take weapon damage into account. Nobody can say that those abilities are useless.

Issac · Aug 24, 2007, 01:50 AM // 01:50

I play a warrior most of the time, and I must agree with most of you say that most of the warriors do suck. I’ll say this but I’m not trying to brag, I’m a good warrior I’ve proved to myself that I’m a good warrior. I’ve been told by many people that I am a good warrior. Even though 1v1 isn’t the best way to judge someone on how they play, you can still tell if their a good or bad player. Even if they lose, you can tell by the build sometimes. I was in a 1v1 with another war and I forgot to put my attributes into my healing, so I had no healing at all. But I didn’t need to heal at all. He barley did any damage and I killed him. I don’t get why people just don’t think on what skills to bring. But still you can’t judge completely on 1v1. I’ve been in so many 1v1 and pretty much won them all, but I’m sure that doesn’t mean much now does it? People just look at warriors from on perspective and that’s pretty much just damage. I’ve learned to stop attacking if I’m hexed badly depending on what position I’m in. And Cathode Reborn I do agree with u. Scythes are pretty strong and they can pack some damage.

Lol I don’t know if it was worth writing this much, hopefully you guys understand what I’m trying to say. I don’t want to upset anyone lol.

Dr Strangelove · Aug 24, 2007, 02:11 AM // 02:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Ah, yes, when you have absolutely no clue what you're doing in a conversation, it makes perfect sense to dismiss everything as nothing more than a matter of taste so that rational arguments no longer have any merit.

I think I used the same argument a couple of years ago on you, saying that elementalists could outdamage warrios easily, and that taking elementalist or warriors for damage was a matter of taste.

I was wrong then, it was was a terrible arguement. Darkpower is wrong now, Balthazar is easily the worst form spell.

Francis Demeules · Aug 24, 2007, 02:35 AM // 02:35

Seeing the Assassin worst class and now we are with warriors? I will not tell for a second time what I said like in the other thread but please, people, Dont try to argue about two classes which they have differents play style.

If you tell me Dervish tank like a warrior to argu what I wrote, just to tell its the players who decided to create a tank with those skills. There's no description where it writed: This skill is used to tank/farm/Spike, etc.

samcobra · Aug 24, 2007, 02:38 AM // 02:38

I judge how good a warrior is by how efficiently he switches targets and how often he hits his bulls.

As for tanking, it ultimately depends on how good your prot/bond monks are and how long seed of life lasts.

blue.rellik · Aug 24, 2007, 12:04 PM // 12:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist

@blue rellik: To make an effective tank out of a warrior, you need Dolyak Signet, OF, WY!, Varying Stances, Enchantments or the combined mixture of those type of heavy armor skills/spells.

I've played with a warrior pretty much everywhere, it's the main thing I do. I typically run a axe war and the only defensive skill I run is 'WY'. Maybe when I got into FoW (where I prefer to be the only warrior). A Dervish with AoB roughly has the same armour as a NORMAL WARRIOR WITH A SHIELD. You're suggesting that a dervish use an elite just to match a warrior? The speed buff? Inconsequential, why the hell would the tank want to run fast? I've used all the Avatar forms with my Dervish and I can say that Melandru and Dwayna offer just as much survivability in most of PvE. 1/2 damage from most sources is useful but it does nothing against hexes or conditions. Sure AoB can be nice if you're in a area jam packed with other warriors but not many places are like that. There are plenty of places where hexes and conditions run rampant, not to mention the fact that tanking is generally not as useful unless you're in specific areas.

Quote:

They also counter any thought of movement when concerning the heaviest armor enhancing skills/spells. In AoB, you get heavy armor and a speed boost wrapped into one fine package. A shield warrior trying to do the normal warrior stuff will have naturally higher armor, indeed, yet will need a seperate stance or spell for a speed boost. Also, that same warrior can't use an IAS and a speed boost stance at the same time currently.

Sooooooo you want a tank that has high armour, moves fast and kills things fast? Bit greedy aren't we? +40 will not save you at all in any high end areas of PvE.

Quote:

The derv, on the contrary, can have AoB and Heart of Fury on simultaneously-essentially doing what the warrior can not do.

What's that? Have warrior level armour and have fast attack/movement? Only advantage that has is fast movement (Warriors have the far superior flail) which is nearly pointless in a PvE fight.

Quote:

If we wanted, just to split hairs, you could pick up a shield and an axe- spec for mysticism and max the axe and run earth prayers enchants to buff the derv and tank the whole world like a warrior. Go sword and actually have a use for Barbarous. You can have fun playing a warrior with a derv. Tuck your scythe under your robes. Tanking/Being a warrior isn't just for the armored anymore.

Your 30 less armour disagrees however.

Darkpower Alchemist · Aug 29, 2007, 12:00 AM // 00:00

@ Ensign and Blue- We have lost sight of the initial discussion, which was if warriors are useless. Which I still say no to. Yet, both of you have pretty much tried to chastise me for my belief that AoB is a very useable form.

Armor wise, the AoB is 70+40=110 while the natural warrior is 80+20(Vs Phys Damage)=100(Vs Physical)/80 (Vs Others).

The AoB does AoE damage with a scythe that deals holy damage for its duration, giving a superior natural armor penetration with any weapon it wields.

The AoB runs at 33% faster movement speed, which when played by a sensible player doesn't break aggro more than prevents kiting with applied skills like Crippling Sweep.

Melee hate effects both the warrior and the AoB in the same fashion, and as such must be removed in the same fashion. That point is a stalemate.

The potential to cause a DW is superior in the AoB(The derv in general, for that matter) due to its ability to do so without the need to build adrenaline. The use of the scythe allows for a more likely chance of a high spike damage output, as we all well know. Coupled with high armor penetration, this can at times allow for a better spike than what a warrior can deal out.

With a 4 pip regen of energy and its use of mysticism, the AoB(Derv, in general) has a superior energy management, and even when enchantments are stripped gives health and energy back to the player, giving the dervish the advantage once again in overall build maintainence unless sighting heavy energy denial. In that case, the warrior that is built for adrenaline will shine.

And the icing on the cake, with the SS derv enchantment, inabling the form to be ran almost constantly and causing more AoE holy damage in PvE. This doesn't make the derv superior, but gives the AoB more flexibilty. In PvP, say what you want about AoB, but to dismiss him as "useless" or "trash" is just not possible.

Yet, to claim that another form is better IS a matter of taste, as the reasoning behind your opinion is based on the other forms uses and countermeasures. Melandru and Dwayna counter effects that, in PvP, hamper the melee classes considerably, and as such is the case makes countermeasures for those ways of playing to be paramount in that style of play. That makes those forms more desirable for that purpose. Purpose being the basis of your reasoning that AoB is inferior to AoM or AoD because he doesn't counter such impediments.

Yet, nor does the warrior.

I don't question either of your knowledge, as Ensign is well known on this forum, and I have read enough from Blue to say he is well versed as well, yet in this I question your reasoning to be more taste and personal opinion that AoB is less useful than AoM or AoD, yet the comparison is about a NORMAL WARRIOR. In that, as the discussion was PvE based, the talk of breaking aggro and such applies to places were aggro needs to be constantly maintained(IE DoA) and kiting isn't your major worry. In the application of a static tank, the warrior is created for it. I wouldn't think of the derv for that particular role, though it can be done. However, the proper use of AoB would be as a mobile attacker who chased down and prevented kiting foes from getting far, while being built to split from its team.

This is its purpose. Its reason for being created,imo. Its sole reason for being used. You don't like AoB? Fine, that's your perrogative, but to say he is crap or useless is opinion,not fact.

Daggrs And All · Aug 29, 2007, 12:28 AM // 00:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist

Pointless? Run Melandru or any other form? Neither is part of the conversation. And yes, the warrior needs 3 slots to be effective. Speed boost, IAS, Armor upgrade. 2 minimum if the armor bonus skill isn't being used.

[skill]Frenzy[/skill][skill]Dash[/skill][skill]"Watch Yourself!"[/skill]=[skill]Avatar of Balthazar[/skill][skill]Heart of Fury[/skill]

Swap out for Flail, and the same scenario applies. Take out Balthazar for another form, and the derv needs a speed boost and lacks the armor that naturally comes with balthazar. My point being that a warrior would need 3 slots minimum to equal up to a AoB Derv in mobility and equal functionality. I wouldn't even throw out the assumption that someone here doesn't know what they're doing because it would be unfounded. I'll chalk it up to taste.

You can't argue taste.

I dont know if you haven't noticed but GW has 8 skill slots and a 'build' is determined how you use ALL 8 not 2 skills vs 3 skills....and btw those skills cant be maintained at all times in PvP the warrior skills can (except Dash)

fuzzybulldozer · Aug 29, 2007, 01:08 AM // 01:08

Darkpower, did you seriously just compare Obsidian Flesh to AoB? I'm not sure how you can even attempt to do that. Did you miss the "cannot be the target of enemy spells" part?

hellyea526 · Aug 29, 2007, 01:15 AM // 01:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist

Armor wise, the AoB is 70+40=110 while the natural warrior is 80+20(Vs Phys Damage)=100(Vs Physical)/80 (Vs Others).

You forgot that the discussion was about a warrior with a shield which adds an additional 16 armor and other mods(usually +30, -5/20%). AoB would have 110 while the warrior would have 116 vs physical/96 vs others which isn't too big of a difference. The additional mods on the shield are also a huge bonus. Furthermore, you have to realize that your using an elite slot to achieve the same armor as a warrior and imo, speed bonuses aren't as big of a deal in pve especially if your going for the idea of a tank. I admit AoB isn't completely useless in pve, but there are better elites to take instead. For PvP, AoM completely dominates AoB. Condition immunity >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Armor+Speed Bonus (not to mention the health bonus from AoM and the ability to use wearying strike)

Icy DS · Aug 29, 2007, 02:13 AM // 02:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist

@ Ensign and Blue- We have lost sight of the initial discussion, which was if warriors are useless. Which I still say no to. Yet, both of you have pretty much tried to chastise me for my belief that AoB is a very useable form.

Armor wise, the AoB is 70+40=110 while the natural warrior is 80+20(Vs Phys Damage)=100(Vs Physical)/80 (Vs Others).

The AoB does AoE damage with a scythe that deals holy damage for its duration, giving a superior natural armor penetration with any weapon it wields.

The AoB runs at 33% faster movement speed, which when played by a sensible player doesn't break aggro more than prevents kiting with applied skills like Crippling Sweep.

Melee hate effects both the warrior and the AoB in the same fashion, and as such must be removed in the same fashion. That point is a stalemate.

The potential to cause a DW is superior in the AoB(The derv in general, for that matter) due to its ability to do so without the need to build adrenaline. The use of the scythe allows for a more likely chance of a high spike damage output, as we all well know. Coupled with high armor penetration, this can at times allow for a better spike than what a warrior can deal out.

With a 4 pip regen of energy and its use of mysticism, the AoB(Derv, in general) has a superior energy management, and even when enchantments are stripped gives health and energy back to the player, giving the dervish the advantage once again in overall build maintainence unless sighting heavy energy denial. In that case, the warrior that is built for adrenaline will shine.

And the icing on the cake, with the SS derv enchantment, inabling the form to be ran almost constantly and causing more AoE holy damage in PvE. This doesn't make the derv superior, but gives the AoB more flexibilty. In PvP, say what you want about AoB, but to dismiss him as "useless" or "trash" is just not possible.

Yet, to claim that another form is better IS a matter of taste, as the reasoning behind your opinion is based on the other forms uses and countermeasures. Melandru and Dwayna counter effects that, in PvP, hamper the melee classes considerably, and as such is the case makes countermeasures for those ways of playing to be paramount in that style of play. That makes those forms more desirable for that purpose. Purpose being the basis of your reasoning that AoB is inferior to AoM or AoD because he doesn't counter such impediments.

Yet, nor does the warrior.

I don't question either of your knowledge, as Ensign is well known on this forum, and I have read enough from Blue to say he is well versed as well, yet in this I question your reasoning to be more taste and personal opinion that AoB is less useful than AoM or AoD, yet the comparison is about a NORMAL WARRIOR. In that, as the discussion was PvE based, the talk of breaking aggro and such applies to places were aggro needs to be constantly maintained(IE DoA) and kiting isn't your major worry. In the application of a static tank, the warrior is created for it. I wouldn't think of the derv for that particular role, though it can be done. However, the proper use of AoB would be as a mobile attacker who chased down and prevented kiting foes from getting far, while being built to split from its team.

This is its purpose. Its reason for being created,imo. Its sole reason for being used. You don't like AoB? Fine, that's your perrogative, but to say he is crap or useless is opinion,not fact.

Ensign > You. stfu

you lose

Darkpower Alchemist · Aug 29, 2007, 02:23 AM // 02:23

And you all are still not reading what I said. I SAID that AoB is a mobile attacker capable of a split scenario. I SAID that when comparing AoB to a warrior the AoB in PvE is more versatile thanks to various already mentioned reasons when comparing a damage dealing warrior to AoB. I SAID a static tank is best when played by a WARRIOR.

I also said that comparing PvP AoB to PvE AoB was a matter of usefulness(PvE) against countermeasures(PvP) where AoB doesn't excell at and is thus not as useful as the derv form counterparts. Yet, the warrior has similar downfalls in PvP, yet the elite slot isn't used. In PvP, both have a place dependent on the team build in play. The AoB isn't used in PvP because the use would not be as effective when comparing it to a warrior. Yet, the derv is used with other forms to counter heavy conditions/hexes. That is when you hear that Melandru/Dwayna are better, but that's in those scenarios, which I also mention in this thread already.

As for an armor comparison, 96/116(Warrior) to 110(AoB) gives a clear advantage when facing elemental damage. The shield isn't as huge a difference to the arguement when comparing a +5 armor mod on the scythe and the natural +25hp on the armor of the dervish. The difference then goes to what the AoB does in comparison to the warrior. AoB brings plenty versatility that a warrior doesn't in PvE, though either works fine. The average warrior doesn't have a perfect shield in most cases, but for arguement sake, that's what we will work with. -5(20%) and hopefully a sup absorption rune, plus a knights insignia make the warrior better at damage absorption if the derv isn't heavily enchanted, which most are.

Are we all on the same page? I hope so.

In the place of heavy enchantment stripping, the warrior is better due to the dependence of EVERY derv on enchantments. In a place where stripping isn't heavy but conditions are, the derv with multiple enchantments is superior when using Mystic regeneration and other enchantments. The AoB in this situation would do just fine, where Melandru would excell. It could be also said for a place of heavy hexes and using Dwayna.

The OB tank is a static tank, and thus needs no mobility. A warrior just taking the brunt of the attacks and tries to maintain aggro for as long as possible. If you talk PvP, this warrior build is useless. If in PvE, it is a niche build for certain areas. In most PvE, the warrior that you would encounter uses speed boost,IAS,and attack skills-just like AoB+Heart of Fury and attack skills. The difference then comes in build makeup. Utility wise, the derv will always be more versatile than your average warrior. A static tank and a heavily armored mobile attacker are 2 different things, but a standard warrior build and a AoB are quite the same, except the AoB in using 2 skills does what a warrior does with 3 skills. This is about the average warrior, so please, let's not further confuse it. The total build useage wasn't what I mentioned in my previous example, but what it took to make an effective warrior compared to an effective AoB dervish. Please, keep my quotes in context.

I never said a warrior uses only 3 or 4 skills, but used 3 skills to do what AoB did in 2.

I hope I've made my point on AoB clear?

As for Icy's comment, No one man is greater than another. Keep your fruitless and useless comment to yourself.

Jam Jar · Aug 29, 2007, 03:18 AM // 03:18

I don't think you should be questioning this question to answerers in the Warrior Section. After all, this IS the warrior section, of course there will be biased answers. If you wanna ask, ask it in a random section like elementalist or necromancer sections.

DokkyDok · Aug 29, 2007, 07:43 AM // 07:43

/signed to move this thread to the Dervish Section :P

If we must flame, why not flame the original thread?

Seriously, why can't we have those defending the warrior flame the ones who dislike them, and vice versa?

Stormlord Alex · Aug 29, 2007, 07:46 AM // 07:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist

As for Icy's comment, No one man is greater than another. Keep your fruitless and useless comment to yourself.

Unless that man is Ensign. Seriously.
AoB is shit, you can stop talking now.

blue.rellik · Aug 29, 2007, 11:09 AM // 11:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist

*snip*

Well to be honest, you're being a strawman here. You made a claim, I called your crap and now you're throwing out more stuff that has nothing to do with what you said in the first place trying to divert attention from the fact that your are 100% wrong.

AoB does not make the ultimate tank. You need to go /E for that

Age · Aug 29, 2007, 08:37 PM // 20:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist

And you all are still not reading what I said. I SAID that AoB is a mobile attacker capable of a split scenario. I SAID that when comparing AoB to a warrior the AoB in PvE is more versatile thanks to various already mentioned reasons when comparing a damage dealing warrior to AoB. I SAID a static tank is best when played by a WARRIOR.

I also said that comparing PvP AoB to PvE AoB was a matter of usefulness(PvE) against countermeasures(PvP) where AoB doesn't excell at and is thus not as useful as the derv form counterparts. Yet, the warrior has similar downfalls in PvP, yet the elite slot isn't used. In PvP, both have a place dependent on the team build in play. The AoB isn't used in PvP because the use would not be as effective when comparing it to a warrior. Yet, the derv is used with other forms to counter heavy conditions/hexes. That is when you hear that Melandru/Dwayna are better, but that's in those scenarios, which I also mention in this thread already.

As for an armor comparison, 96/116(Warrior) to 110(AoB) gives a clear advantage when facing elemental damage. The shield isn't as huge a difference to the arguement when comparing a +5 armor mod on the scythe and the natural +25hp on the armor of the dervish. The difference then goes to what the AoB does in comparison to the warrior. AoB brings plenty versatility that a warrior doesn't in PvE, though either works fine. The average warrior doesn't have a perfect shield in most cases, but for arguement sake, that's what we will work with. -5(20%) and hopefully a sup absorption rune, plus a knights insignia make the warrior better at damage absorption if the derv isn't heavily enchanted, which most are.

Are we all on the same page? I hope so.

In the place of heavy enchantment stripping, the warrior is better due to the dependence of EVERY derv on enchantments. In a place where stripping isn't heavy but conditions are, the derv with multiple enchantments is superior when using Mystic regeneration and other enchantments. The AoB in this situation would do just fine, where Melandru would excell. It could be also said for a place of heavy hexes and using Dwayna.

The OB tank is a static tank, and thus needs no mobility. A warrior just taking the brunt of the attacks and tries to maintain aggro for as long as possible. If you talk PvP, this warrior build is useless. If in PvE, it is a niche build for certain areas. In most PvE, the warrior that you would encounter uses speed boost,IAS,and attack skills-just like AoB+Heart of Fury and attack skills. The difference then comes in build makeup. Utility wise, the derv will always be more versatile than your average warrior. A static tank and a heavily armored mobile attacker are 2 different things, but a standard warrior build and a AoB are quite the same, except the AoB in using 2 skills does what a warrior does with 3 skills. This is about the average warrior, so please, let's not further confuse it. The total build useage wasn't what I mentioned in my previous example, but what it took to make an effective warrior compared to an effective AoB dervish. Please, keep my quotes in context.

I never said a warrior uses only 3 or 4 skills, but used 3 skills to do what AoB did in 2.

I hope I've made my point on AoB clear?

As for Icy's comment, No one man is greater than another. Keep your fruitless and useless comment to yourself.

No it is you that is on the wrong page as those Derv. Skills are useless to a Warrior they don't have the attribute although they can work for 2 sec.How do I know this is because i tried VoS and it lasted 2 sec compared to my Dervs 9 sec.The Obsidian Flesh that is for farming we aren't talking about farming here we are talking about warriors be usefull.I will this is that it is better to have one around than a typical male Elementalist going up and tanking a mob with nukes.I can't stand that as a monk or even a warrior as they sit there and cry.

You would never be cought using Derv. skills in PvP.